Next Gino's/CHAOS Beer!

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JimChochola
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That would be awesome, Jim!

That would be awesome, Jim! Yes!

Thank you!

JimChochola
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Please note that your recipe

Please note that your recipe must be brewed at the CHAOS brew house.

It was pointed out that some people have phat home brew systems at home. Since this is a CHAOS-focused competition, in order to level the playing field, a recipe should be brewed at the flagship brew house.

Jeff W
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Jim, you may want to create a

Jim, you may want to create a sign up sheet, just so we know how many judges are needed.

JimChochola
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You're right!

You're right!

SIGN UP TO BREW HERE

 

Brandon Kessler
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I'll be brewing this at the

I'll be brewing this at the brewhouse, Jim. But c'mon .. it's not the quality or size of the brewhouse - it's how you use it!!

JimChochola
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Agreed, Brandon!

Agreed, Brandon!

AdamG
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Are we going to make everyone

Are we going to make everyone submit bottles for judging?  Or are kegs going to be ok too?  If we all bottle it'd level the playing field a bit... 

JimChochola
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I've never heard of a

I've never heard of a competiton accepting kegs...

I put the submission requirements up on the event listing.

Kyle N
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If going by BJCP standard,

If going by BJCP standard, all entries should be submitted in unmarked, 12 oz brown bottles. We will have to figure out a label arrangement (attached with a rubberband) and appoint a cellar person to keep track of everything. 

 

Jim: check out Beer and Sweat! It's a comp run around Cincinnati that is keg only. Pretty crazy. 

JimChochola
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Unless I was reading the

Unless I was reading the wrong BJCP competiton doc, it's not strictly 12oz/brown but definitely not keg.

As long as your name is rubber banded to the bottle and not written directly on the bottle, I'll accept it. And, I'll keep track of all entries.

Jim Vondracek
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For the entries, the judges

For the entries, the judges will need to know any specialty ingredients or processes that were used, also. For example, if someone enters a Dubbel aged with oak chips or cherries, the judges need to know those ingredients so as to not mark the beer down for having flavors or aromas that take it outside the Dubbel style guidelines.  This is standard BJCP practice for specialty beers.  

StevenLane
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Thanks for the tip Jim, I'm

Thanks for the tip Jim, I'm planning on adding some date syrup to the dark candy syrup, which has date sugar. I want to boost that flavor component, and I get to call it a Dubbel Date!

Jim Vondracek
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That sounds great, Steven!

That sounds great, Steven!

For others and moving forward, it would probably be best not to share here exactly what you are brewing, in case some of the judges read it here and then can connect the brewer to the beer.  Keeping the beers anonymous to the judges leads to the most objective judging.  

What I meant, and should have said, was that when brewers enter their beers, in addition to your name, it would be helpful if you listed as any special ingredients or processes.  Jim C. will organize them and make sure the beers are anonymous for the judges.  

 

 

Boollish
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Omura and I drunkenly decided

Omura and I drunkenly decided Thursday that Tuesday Brewsday will be submitting for this competition. 

That way when my beer crashes and burns it will be equally embarassing for him as it is for me.

StevenLane
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For a Belgian Dubbel, BJCP

For a Belgian Dubbel, BJCP color guidelines dictate amber to dark amber (10-17 SRM).

It strikes me that Westmalle Dubbel in a glass looks like it is in the low 20s, but when it is pouring out, you can see that it is more like 12-15 (graphic attached).

Any judgy types have tips on assessing color for this style?

Here is an interesting article on beer color:
https://www.homebrewhedonist.com/estimating-beer-colour-not-so-straight-...
 

Jeff W
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I would not get too hung up

I would not get too hung up on the color. Most of the dubbels I've come across have been on the darker side, but as it's in the range, you're good.

Jim Vondracek
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Good news, a BJCP National

Good news, a BJCP National judge, Bob Brown, has agreed to help judge our little club competition!

SeanC
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This color conversation has

This color conversation has me wondering, again, what's the end game here. On color: BJCP says dark amber to copper, SRM 10-17; Brewers Association says it should be brown to very dark, SRM 16-36; the book Brew LIke a Monk says says SRM 11-20. Plus, it's a Belgian style, where, in the origin country, brewers typically eschew (strict) classification of beer styles.  

Where, again, are the goalposts? What instruction will we give to the judges? Beer that best nails the style (and according to what standard?) Most enjoyable beer that basically feels liike a Dubbel? Can even a style-challenging beer win if it's awesome? 

 

 

 

 

Kyle N
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Since we are aiming for a

Since we are aiming for a BJCP-credited competition, I would brew a Dubbel to 2015 BJCP Style Guidelines (Cat. 26B). If you want to add a special ingredient, I suppose that is up to you, but I'd limit it to one. We also have no confirmation that Gino's would be able to scale that up, if chosen due to cost and/or availability. If you add a special ingredient, it should be noted for the judges. 

As follows: 26B. Belgian Dubbel

Overall Impression: A deep reddish-copper, moderately strong, malty, complex Trappist ale with rich malty flavors, dark or dried fruit esters, and light alcohol blended together in a malty presentation that still finishes fairly dry.

Aroma: Complex, rich-sweet malty aroma, possibly with hints of chocolate, caramel and/or toast (but never roasted or burnt aromas). Moderate fruity esters (usually including raisins and plums, sometimes also dried cherries). Esters sometimes include banana or apple. Spicy phenols and higher alcohols are common (may include light clove and spice, peppery, rose-like and/or perfumy notes). Spicy qualities can be moderate to very low. Alcohol, if present, is soft and never hot or solventy. Low to no spicy, herbal, or floral hop aroma, typically absent. The malt is most prominent in the balance with esters and a touch of alcohol in support, blending together for a harmonious presentation.

Appearance: Dark amber to copper in color, with an attractive reddish depth of color. Generally clear. Large, dense, and long-lasting creamy off-white head.

Flavor: Similar qualities as aroma. Rich, complex medium to medium-full rich-sweet malt flavor on the palate yet finishes moderately dry. Complex malt, ester, alcohol and phenol interplay (raisiny flavors are common; dried fruit flavors are welcome; clove or pepper spiciness is optional). Balance is always toward the malt. Medium-low bitterness that doesn’t persist into the aftertaste. Low spicy, floral, or herbal hop flavor is optional and not usually present.

Mouthfeel: Medium-full body. Medium-high carbonation, which can influence the perception of body. Low alcohol warmth. Smooth, never hot or solventy.

Comments: Most commercial examples are in the 6.5 – 7% ABV range. Traditionally bottle-conditioned (or refermented in the bottle).

History: Originated at monasteries in the Middle Ages, and was revived in the mid-1800s after the Napoleonic era.

Characteristic Ingredients: Belgian yeast strains prone to production of higher alcohols, esters, and phenolics are commonly used. Impression of complex grain bill, although traditional versions are typically Belgian Pils malt with caramelized sugar syrup or other unrefined sugars providing much of the character. Saazer-type, English-type or Styrian Goldings hops commonly used. No spices are traditionally used, although restrained use is allowable (background strength only).

Style Comparison: Should not be as malty as a bock and should not have crystal malt-type sweetness. Similar in strength and balance as a Belgian Blond, but with a richer malt and ester profile. Less strong and intense as a Belgian Dark Strong Ale.

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.062 – 1.075

IBUs: 15 – 25

FG: 1.008 – 1.018

SRM: 10 – 17

ABV: 6.0 – 7.6%

Commercial Examples: Affligem Dubbel, Chimay Première, Corsendonk Pater, Grimbergen Double, La Trappe Dubbel, St. Bernardus Pater 6, Trappistes Rochefort 6, Westmalle Dubbel Tags: high-strength, amber-color,

johngammal
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Quick question on this. I

Quick question on this. I made a recipe on beer smith and all the numbers are within the range, except srm, which is 17.1. .1 too much. Also, if I don't hit my numbers and it comes in too high or low, am I disqualified?

Kyle N
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Quick answer: No. There's no

Quick answer: No. There's no way a judge will know what the actual stats of the finished beer are.

StevenLane
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Looks like a hydrometer tube

Looks like a hydrometer tube is also good for judging color. At Belgian Fest Sunday, RevBrew had a Belgian Dubbel right in the BJCP sweet spot stat-wise, but it lacks complexity. Last night I brewed a Dubbel that came in at the low end of the gravity scale, seems perfect for the time crunch we are in, but it doesn't seem to capture the depth of character.

 

Rich
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So, I know the cat is out of

So, I know the cat is out of the bag on this one, but why are we judging this based on BJCP?  If this beer is for a broad public audience, shouldn't it be judged that way as well?  I'm not saying all contests should be judged that way, just this one in particular.  If I were trying to sell a beer to the public, I would want the one with the broadest appeal to people that are going to have varying exposure to craft beer, not necessarily one that was typical to the style.

And I'm not just saying that because mine isn't up to standards like John's, because mine is, of course.

Kyle N
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This seems to get nit-picked

This seems to get nit-picked a lot in homebrewing circles, but one must remember that it's labeled as the BJCP Guidelines, not the BJCP End-All-Be-All. 

It seems that Gino's asked our input for a style, and this is a nice stepping off point. We're even being quite liberal in the acceptance of some modification to the base recipe (and judging them together isn't what a normal BJCP competition would do, either). 

In the end (and I think the other judges amongst the group would agree) the best beer will come out on top. It's actually quite easy to distinguish a well-made beer, regardless of its stylistic intricacies. 

Jim Vondracek
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Agreed, Kyle.  Every beer

Agreed, Kyle.  Every beer will be a score, based on the way BJCP scoresheet.  Then the top beers will be put into a Best of Show round where the judges will use a more hedonistic approach and rank the top three beers.  So, both technical merit and enjoyability are rewarded.  

Canuck
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Quick question, Who is

Quick question, Who is judging this?  Are CHAOS BJCP certified judges who enter a beer going to judge thier own beer?

The emperor is not as forgiving as i am

Kyle N
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Not sure about the first half

Not sure about the first half of the question, but no judges will be judging in any flight/round that possesses their own beer. 

Jim Vondracek
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I volunteered to recruit and

I volunteered to recruit and coordinate the judges.  If we have 12 - 15 entries (I'm told we had 12 last year), two or three pairs of judges (four or six judges) will be plenty.  With that few judges needed, I think we won't have any problem getting enough judges that we won't need to ask anyone who has entered a beer.  So far, we've got three - one is a National judge (not a member of CHAOS), one is is a Certified judge and a member of CHAOS and the third is a CHAOS member who wants to explore getting BJCP credentialed.  

Here's my thoughts on how the judging will go:  

We'll divide the entries into flights, with each pair of judges evaluating one flight.  They will prepare scoresheets for each beer and we'll ask them to work with each other so that their scores are no more than 5 points apart.  After the flights are finished, each pair of judges will push a few of their best beers forward to a Best of Show round.  There, the top ranked judges will taste all of the beers pushed forward, discuss them, and then come to agreement on ranking them first through third place.

How does that sound?  Have I missed anything?  

 

 

Jeff W
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Sounds good, Jim. That's what

Sounds good, Jim. That's what we did last year, too.

Jim Vondracek
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Good news, we're up to four

Good news, we're up to four committed judges - one National, two Certified, and one Provisional.  There are 11 beers entered, so two pairs of judges are good for now.  I'll see if we can get one more pair of judges, but we're covered.  

JamesLewis
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I can judge, perhaps Jim

I can judge, perhaps Jim didnt pass on the memo. National.

Jim Vondracek
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That's great, James.  Just

That's great, James.  Just double checking that you're not entering, correct?  FYI, the other national judge is Bob Brown.  

Jeff W
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So, are we good on judges now

So, are we good on judges now?  

JamesLewis
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Not entering, unfortunately

Not entering, unfortunately haven't not brewed in over a year....

JamesLewis
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Not entering, unfortunately

Not entering, unfortunately have not brewed in over a year....

Jim Vondracek
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Yes, Jeff, we have five

Yes, Jeff, we have five judges lined up, which is enough.  If we get one more, then three pairs is definitely enough.  

johngammal
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So Pete and Steven have both

So Pete and Steven have both had a great idea of doing a bottle share with all the entries of this competition. So if everyone that brews for this can save 3 bombers, we'll plan a brewhouse Belgium Dubble bottle share sometime in December or January.  

I'll make sure to have plenty of copies of my winning recipe on hand for all of you, so you don't have to waste time trying to clone it. 

Canuck
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"I'll make sure to have

"I'll make sure to have plenty of copies of my winning recipe on hand for all of you, so you don't have to waste time trying to clone it."

Let the smack talk commence

The emperor is not as forgiving as i am

Jeff W
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Mine will be available for

Mine will be available for purchase at Gino's East.

Rich
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Did nobody tell John this isn

Did nobody tell John this isn't a "everybody gets a trophy" type of contest?

Jeff W
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Shhh.. Don't upset the

Shhh.. Don't upset the Millennials.

Kyle N
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I just came from an end of

I just came from an end of the year pizza party for "a good season," so this is relavant to my interests. 

Jim Vondracek
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Hi Everyone, just quick

Hi Everyone, just quick follow-up on the judging night:

  1. If you haven't signed up to enter a beer yet but want to, please do so here 
  2. Judging will begin at 6:30 pm, followed by announcement of top three places and bottle sharing of all the entries at 7:30 - everyone is invited to join us at 7:30

Cheers,

Jim

 

Kyle N
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What's the drop off deadline?

What's the drop off deadline?

Rich
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November 10th according to

November 10th according to the event post.  Not really sure where we are supposed to leave them, though.

JimChochola
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Please do not plan to leave

Please do not plan to leave your beer there this early. We're not responsible for lost/drunken beers.

I planned to give further instructions a bit closer to comp date.

I will clean out a shelf or two in one of the fridges after Harvest Fest (so that all entries get the same refrigeration) and leave a note on the fridge.

Will let you know when that happens.

Kyle N
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Thanks Rich and Jim.

Thanks Rich and Jim. Definitely won't be leaving the beer early, quite the opposite: wanted to know how close I would be cutting it! 

SeanC
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Is the competition open to

Is the competition open to guests? 

Jim Vondracek
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Hi Sean, the more the merrier

Hi Sean, the more the merrier.  Only club members who brew at the brewhouse can enter the competition, but if you want to bring someone to announcement of the winners and the tasting of the entries and any other beers people bring, that would be great.  

SeanC
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Thanks Jim!

Thanks Jim!

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